Earl Hall

"It appears that you don't read very well on what we "pastors" write. Evidently, you completely missed my repeated statement wherein I do not make a demand that anyone tithes. You must have also missed the fact that my wife and I, as leaders in the church; are always the first tithers, thereby setting an example that we are not teaching anything that we do not believe in practicing"

You are one of the few exceptions that may not make a demand on the members. Remember I said "pastors" that being plural not singular. As for the statement concerning you and your wife I didn't see that point. I just read the message again. Maybe it's in a different location or you may have intended on mentioning it. Please don't be so sensitive.

Genesis 14 & Hebrews 7

Let me ask you (ALL) of what. There is no scripture atleast of what I have found that says Abraham tithe of his personal possessions. Abraham made a vow not to take spoils of war. Abraham tithed what actually belong to others and gave to another. However the Abraham and Jacob experience which were one time events before the law of tithing aren't even the focus of why tithing is no more. Whether you or any other pastor uses those 2 incidents to support tithing. One can never get around the fact that those were personal, out of custom and not of commandment from GOD. Yes you were correct. I'm not a student of ancient warfare. Was that suppose to be an insult? Ouch that hurt. What I do know is the use of Abraham's experience to justify tithing is a very poor attempt as I mentioned before. If went out in the "hood" and cracked some blood gang member across the nogging and took a wad of money out of his pocket. Would that rightfully be my possesion? According to street warfare absolutely YES. But what does that have to do with the mandate, commandments and laws from GOD. Therefore you reference concerning ancient warfare was futile concerning the law of tithing in GOD. The tithe was of the LAND.

The tithe was not income based it was of the harvest. Money was used at that time but one had to pay a penalty. Others had to travel very far so they were allowed to exchange fruit, vegies or etc for money. (If two farmers had crops of 10 carrots each, they would both be obligated to tithe one carrot. Under the agrarian tithing system it didn't matter If one sold the other 9 carrots for $5 and the other sold his remaining 9 carrots for $10. The tithe of the harvest was unrelated to the income of the harvest. Plain and simple - THE TITHE WAS NOT 10% OF INCOME, it was 10% of the harvest. The Jews under the law were NOT obligated to give 10% of their incomes! This simple fact alone is enough to destroy the false doctrine that God DEMANDS you pay 10% of your income or be cursed.) Tithing Lie.org

You mentioned Hebrews 7:11-17 I won't even bother. Has almost nothing to do with the topic.

Agriculture was the tithe. That including food animals and etc. Last I check you could eat cattle. There were exemptions or circumstances where one could give something else due condition, travel or etc as I previously mentioned. I didn't think I had to mentioned those things. Bible tells us that those who gave money faced a penalty. However it was never intended to be money primarily.

Acts 5
Wow you are really reaching. Now what does that have to do with tithing. Were does the text even mention tithing. If this were and example of tithing. Where is that example of that today? Now this is what bothers me about many of you pastors. No offense please but you take what part that will benefit the agenda. If we look at the Acts 4:34-36 work. We have many so called Apostles today. Who neither move in power like the true Apostles of old. Nor do they move by example. Many take from people but rarely if ever give. Another topic but my point is to do such a thing as sell one possessions and give to the church could be done today for fair distribution. However we won't see it because it's not required.

How does a pastor today measure what goes under the rod? We do have poor people and they didn't tithe. There is just to many holes with tithing today. Tithing today is oppresive to the poor. I quite sure God would have nothing to do with that.

Let me add also tithing undermines spirit led giving

(Your response: Totally incorrect again. If one is truly "spirit led" to give, then one would give in strict obedience to God, His word, and His perfect will. This because, the first evidence of one being "spirit led" is that he/she obeys God. Improper teaching on this has led to individuals with 6 figure salaries believing that a $3 bucket plunk ($1 for the Father, 1 for the Son, 1 for the Holy Ghost), is an acceptable, "spirit led" offering.)

How ridiculous of an example you gave. That was the total opposite of what I wrote. I said spirit led giving. A person that has a six figure that gives 3 dollars is obviously not a cheerful giving, spirit led or a lover of the work God's ministry. I wasn't referring to anything but the spirit leading not someone's fleshly heart.

(Your response)It is very intersting that you cite a web site as your source of information when that same web site has information posted by several apostates contending that the Bible is full of error an contradiction. And I, for one; am a stauch proponent of Christians doing their homework before citing web information as being "biblical truth". In addition, this is not about what we pastors can't imagine, but what congregants like yourself can't seem to fathom. That is, we live in a real world wherein nothing is coming to us for free. Yet you want to sit in a sanctuary with lights so you can see to read your bible, heat so that you are warm in the winter, a/c to cool you in the hot summer months, and a roof over your head to keep you dry when it rains. But I suppose you expect the pastors to go into bankruptcy keeping all of this up, maintained, and running for your benefit.

I haven't checked everything concerning that site's teaching. As I said years ago I found them to be one of the resourceful sites concerning no more tithing. I have dozens of them I just chose to use their site because cover the large scope of tithing. One could poke holes, put out fires or critique just about anyones site. So what's your point? I gave the site's text as a reference point.

Of course we live in a world were nothing is free. Still doesn't justify tithing or bondage. I totally believe in giving. It's in order. As far as someone wanting the amenities of a house of worship. I don't know who you were speaking for because what do you tell a guy who has church in his home. The lights, heat or a/c is going to be on whether people tithe or not. Or well it should be if one desires those things. In the beginning of the church they did the same. There weren't small, average size or oversized "churches. It's quite odd mentions cheerful giving though never mentions tithing. He does talk about other churches giving or supporting ministry though tithe isn't the term mentioned. MMMMMMMMMMM. I highly doubt a pastor going bankrupt. Especially one who lives in his means. Most of the good pastors I know actually work or own a business. The others are the one's who prey on the unlearned, spiritually deaf, dumb and blind. Most if not all those types are wealthy to extremely rich so I don't see them going bankrupt anytime soon.

{Some points already mentioned but there are others}
6. Tithing as taught today is modified and NOT the same as Biblical tithing.

God gave the tithes to the Levites as an inheritance in return for their service and to compensate them for having no personal inheritance of land. The Levites gave tithes to the Priests from the tithes they received. Christianity has no agrarian system, no Levites and every Christian is now a priest, the temple and co-workers with Christ. [2 Peter 2:5 & 9, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6] Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property:
(1) one tithe for the Levites;
(2) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and
(3) one for the poor of the land. [Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 14]
Given the above, it is clear that any church mandating tithes should be spending AT LEAST ONE THIRD of their income on the poor since that is what was required under mandated law tithing. How many churches come close to this? I know of none. Yet it is not uncommon for some ministers to call their parishioners thieves if they don't tithe. It's all of the law or none of it.

The only two pre-law examples of tithing in Genesis were voluntary, non-routine and profit [ownership] based. Biblical law tithing was agrarian [land] based. Neither was income or money based as is usually taught today. People should not be "creatively constructing" doctrine, teaching that biblical tithing is giving 10% of their gross or net income, picking and choosing what part of the tithing law they will follow, mandating amounts or mixing law with Grace. The bible is clear on what pre and post law tithing was and how it was to be handled. A tithe is a tenth, but a tenth of what and how? If one wants to teach a tithe is 10% of gross or net income do NOT call it biblical tithing. It is YOUR plan for giving, NOT the biblical agrarian or pre-law plan. Since it is YOUR plan, be extra careful about putting stumbling blocks into people's path by purporting that your plan is God's law resulting in judgement if not followed.

Tithing CAN'T be practiced as it was in biblical times because the law, the agrarian system, the agricultural system, sacrifices, debt cancellation, Year of Jubilee and other interrelated factors are all abolished. Plus, today's churches have no "law" in place requiring them to fulfill the communal responsibilities and resource distribution of the agrarian law based tithing system.

Therefore, it would probably be best to do away with the word "tithing" entirely in this age of Grace to avoid the mixing of law and Grace that is common today. However, that may be difficult given the "tithemania" that has swept the land. Many will believe a "giving plan" will assist contributions and help people decide what is appropriate to give and we will discuss that shortly. Tithing lie.org

9. Christ did NOT teach giving 10% of ones income but the principle of supporting ministers and churches remains.

There was a well-established money system in place at the time of Christ. Yet, Christ's ONLY direct mention of tithing was to a JEW still under law and the tithing was HERBS [agrarian], NOT money or income from herbs. [Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42] There was certainly a market for herbs and spices [John 12:5, Mark 14: 3-5, Matthew 26:7-9] yet the tithes mentioned by Jesus were clearly herbs, not income from herbs. So, are we to tell Christians today they must tithe herbs? Are we to make a totally unscriptural leap from herbs to 10% of income? Christ also ordered some to perform ceremonial cleansing, foot washing and Christ celebrated Jewish holy days and feasts. Why are these things not demanded of Christians today? It is ALL of the law or none of it. Even in teachings to Jews, Christ taught tithing was NOT a priority with God [Luke 18: 9-14] and that there were weightier matters that God was concerned about. [Matthew 23:23] In addition to the above, consider various translations regarding Jesus' mention of tithing and note how the meaning changes: Tithing Lie.org